The should ministers be paid question was a legit question because I just dont know. I feel like money makes the situation very sticky, but in order to do what ministers do in America they need to be paid.

However, it also gets sticky when you say how much they should get paid. If ministers were paid well to extremely well there would be all kinds of problems I think with that. It just sounds extremely dangerous.

Another question that comes from this is how does a church determine how much each minister makes? That's sticky too.

On the second question I feel that I have a passionate answer, but wanted to see what others had to say first.

I would harshly say that the biggest problem with the American church is the extreme not Christ like way we live in light of our money. The fact that Americans have SO SO SO much and have the knowledge that our brothers and sisters in Africa have nothing and in some cases no food is horrifying. We could be a source of blessing to the world in that way, yet we are not even willing to take care of our own, including those down the street living in poverty.

Some may say to the poor here in America that many would scwander (sp?) the money, but how does that have anything to do with our duty to provide? We should be giving to people regardless of what they will be doing with it. . . I suppose that's a whole other conversation in itself. I am very scared how we treat our money, and treat our suffering brothers and sisters, and I am frightened at myself and how I have stuff in my room right now. And as I don't think this verse was necessarily implying what I am using it for, but it is so hard for a rich person to enter Heaven. It is also difficult to be responsible and trustworthy with what we have been given, which has been a lot, I hope I am up to the task to do good with it all.

What will those in the future critique about the American Church today? What is our greatest problem?

Should ministers be paid?

So yet again my mind has been flipped inside out with thought. Here it is . . .

Do ethics even matter? Do I place them above or in the place of God? I got to this point by looking at the story of Abraham. I think all would agree that killing innocent children is slightly frowned upon, yet God calls for it. Putting war and killing aside in the Old Testament aside, it seems like we KNOW that killing a child is unethical. Yet in this instance God requires faith (which carries no reason or ethics) above ethics and reason.

Abraham is called to break his relationship with humanity by committing a sin against his son to keep the relationship between himself and God still standing.

That blows my mind.

I think that the inherient idea of morality was given to us for a reason. I think the Spirit was given to us for a reason. Yet, this story has just stopped me in my boots and made me ponder does our relationship with God mean more than doing what it right?

Intense.

Spence - the world mission workshop was this past weekend.

The speakers really stuck it to us and there were many challenges, but unrelated (or seemingly) was self reflection and getting knocked down and wrestling with God.

I'm off to class.

What does it mean that Jesus brought the Kingdom of God (now)?







I'm going to the World Mission Workshop at Lubbock Christian University and I am amazingly excited. If you could throw down a prayer for a learning heart and mind that would be great!

For some reason when God would strike someone down for whatever reason it seems ok. I mean he knows whats up. An interesting factor however that perturbs me about God and War/Genocide is that it involves his people.

Him taking out Sodom seems less controversial than using Israel to wipe out the Canaanites (which they didnt follow through on). But doesnt that have to effect people in weird ways.

Another opinion. I don't feel like (feel like a bad way to start an opinion I know but I dont care) any war started by man cannot be just because it requires judgement and who is one human to judge another and condemn another to die?

However, if God grants us the authority and/or commands us to, that seems more legit.

History gets sticky of rulers claiming God called them, but I obviously cant judge the heart and say he didnt but I can know the man by his fruit.

I was really scared of God today, and his wrath because it is coming. Wow, so scary!

I just don't have the time, but I hope this can be somehow included in our discussion and not too off topic. Does God cause tornadoes and genocide and hurricanes and evil people? If no, how then can we attribute anything good that happens to him? God always wins. How do you decide what to attribute to God and what not too?

Sorry I don't have time to put my thoughts up yet, and this may stray from our topic, but it was something I was pondering on last night.

I still need to process y'alls thoughts, thanks! And also, I think I will write on here so there arent a million comments on a single page . . . yet know that I (as I'm sure everyone else) is going back a few days and making sure if there are new comments on an ("old") post.

Here's some random thoughts and they are human interpretation so maybe that's something we should keep in mind.

jus‧tice  /ˈdʒʌstɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[juhs-tis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3. the moral principle determining just conduct.
4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.



Genesis 18:25
25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [a] of all the earth do right?"

Exodus 25:5
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

34:7
7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Numbers 16:9
22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"

I actually have not even read it, cause I'm off to see THE DEPARTED . . . have a wonderful weekend!

WOW and I ALMOST forgot since it seems like its just not a big deal anymore (hahahaha) if OU decides to get up from the temper tantrum from the Oregon game we will gladly knock you down with pleasure. GO HORNS!

I think I may need to post my thoughts as comments also so that we can keep up with the same conversation, what do y'all think?

So here's my NEW question that Jason's thinking brought me to. . .

Well let me first say, you heard my thoughts on God's promises and covanants, his word trumping things (as I was just thinking out loud)

and let me ask this question to Charles first too, what if those who are in the spot of the pre-christian as you were talking about were claiming to be Christian? which may lead to the discussing we had about treating Christians differenetly, or maybe not at all . . . by the way CHRIS where you at, we need to be a WIG-Newton team here somehow!

ANYWAYS, here's the question I originally wanted up here . . . how can God be Just and Gracious? Can those things coexist? Justice and Grace . . . ok GO!

Oh and Brad I am definitely calling you out . . . are you hiding behind a rock? I mean really where are you Sabo? (Smile, have a wonderful day fellows!)

And I have been defeated. Y'all dominated, and I'm officially excited about Abilene, Austin, H-Town and Jinja being officially represented.

I'm absolutely down with more discussion on that ("Christian Music"), it was a random question that popped into my head right before going to class last time. Now I have another that's not as random and extremely complicated or perhaps not at all.

I have recently attacked the current war we are in and would also consider myself a pacifist. In Church history/phiolosophy/life the question of Just War has come up with thoughts specifically coming from Augustine and earlier Christians.

I am about to head out to eat and then go to the Church I attend on Wed nights called College Drive devo where a bunch of college folk get together at a house/church, it's really neat.

I am really enjoying your comments and thoughts, hopefully I'll have some more time to throw in more myself!

"I think therefore I am?" (Smile)

I just finished a paper about the greatest contribution of the Eastern Orthodox Church to the Church as a whole.

I really enjoy church history! (not sarcastic)

Will I ever use all this knowledge?

What do you think about Christian music? (not sure where i am going with that)