I think I may need to post my thoughts as comments also so that we can keep up with the same conversation, what do y'all think?
So here's my NEW question that Jason's thinking brought me to. . .
Well let me first say, you heard my thoughts on God's promises and covanants, his word trumping things (as I was just thinking out loud)
and let me ask this question to Charles first too, what if those who are in the spot of the pre-christian as you were talking about were claiming to be Christian? which may lead to the discussing we had about treating Christians differenetly, or maybe not at all . . . by the way CHRIS where you at, we need to be a WIG-Newton team here somehow!
ANYWAYS, here's the question I originally wanted up here . . . how can God be Just and Gracious? Can those things coexist? Justice and Grace . . . ok GO!
Oh and Brad I am definitely calling you out . . . are you hiding behind a rock? I mean really where are you Sabo? (Smile, have a wonderful day fellows!)
So here's my NEW question that Jason's thinking brought me to. . .
Well let me first say, you heard my thoughts on God's promises and covanants, his word trumping things (as I was just thinking out loud)
and let me ask this question to Charles first too, what if those who are in the spot of the pre-christian as you were talking about were claiming to be Christian? which may lead to the discussing we had about treating Christians differenetly, or maybe not at all . . . by the way CHRIS where you at, we need to be a WIG-Newton team here somehow!
ANYWAYS, here's the question I originally wanted up here . . . how can God be Just and Gracious? Can those things coexist? Justice and Grace . . . ok GO!
Oh and Brad I am definitely calling you out . . . are you hiding behind a rock? I mean really where are you Sabo? (Smile, have a wonderful day fellows!)
posted by Heath at 11:50 AM
5 Comments:
WOW, I don't know how I almost misplaced the crazy Indian . . . so here's my last call out.
BIG JOHN, your not in session yet and we need to hear from a state official. period. (smile)
Are we mixing up Grace and Mercy?
Either way, that God is Just, and Gracious, and Merciful is a paradox (for me). I like Chris's faithful response. And I still long to know the how?, and why?...
I may have already expressed this (can't remember) - I am really trying to understand Grace. Everytime someone tries to define it for me they end up on the topic of forgiveness. To me, these are distinct occurances. I can be gracious (give you something you don't deserve/haven't earned) and not be forgiving. But the flipside isn't the same - I can not forgive (wipe the slate clean so to speak) and have it not be an expression of grace (Or am I wrong here? Can a person earn forgiveness?). I also believe a person can show mercy (not giving a person what he/she has earned/does deserve) and not forgive. But can a person forgive, and not demonstrate in the same act - mercy?
It's beautiful to think that God's Forgiveness is an expression of both His Grace and simultaniously His Mercy. Where my human nature may be inclined to show one or the other (grace/mercy) apart from forgiveness, God through Jesus has introduced a better way.
I don't think "turn the other cheek" was intended to only apply to those who do the same, as it seems to be applied to the Romans' as well as the Pharisees' physical violence. It's safe to say if someone is seeking to harm you solely for their pleasure or gain, whatever they call themselves, they're not following Christ. Not saying they can't/won't be someday, but at that time they're idolaters of self.
I always thought gracious the way Jason defines it is more social grace - smoothing things over for the sake of harmony and/or good manners. God's Grace (yea proper nouns!) is a wiping of the slate far beyond any forgiveness we can muster. Grace seems like an unJust intervention, a Get Out of Jail Free card, but it's as much part of the original creation as we are. It's part and parcel with the Word - we just didn't get to see it so dramatically until Jesus arrived. If anything, the Old Testament's Graceless world was the aberration, to demonstrate how lovingly God designed the fullness of creation.
I'd be lying, though, if I didn't admit at some point I fall back on how I've questioned/doubted so many teachings from the Bible, and time has proved all of them right and not a single one wrong (the actual teachings, not my opinions or interpretations, which require revising all too often).
Charles, I don't believe you understood what I was saying... and I know that I don't understand your commentary on what I was saying (specifically about defining grace). Would you reconsider/rephrase/elaborate for me?
Also, I love you. What I mean is that I enjoy your perspective and approach. It is, generally speaking, different than mine... And I believe our exchanges in the past have made me a better disciple of Christ. Thank you.
Finally, I think that my use of the word "introduced" (last paragraph, last sentence) was incorrect. I believe Charles illustrated that well when he pointed out that Grace was "part of the original creation". So from here on my last line, first comment should read "demonstrated" rather than "introduced".
Sorry, Jason, didn't mean to dismiss what you were saying. You'd said you could be gracious but not forgive. To me, that's being socially graceful, which is a boon to relationships and is a good thing, but the "grace" there means the same as elegance or a performance, like graceful dancing (which I have no experience with :-)), not God's undeserved gift. But that's just my connotation.
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